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jews_don_t_need_christ

Jews don't need Christ

<t> Hello! Are there any replacement theologists in this channel? I.E. can someone here please discuss with me the new covenant?
<G> t: propose someting … anything … and I will prove you wrong if I can.
<A> Well. I cam tell I am not one, I have no idea what a replacement theologist is.
<t> G: Ok how about this. Jews (specifically jews and not romans, non-jews, etc.) are required to accept christ in order to obtain salvation,and may NOT obtain salvation via the covenant at sinai.
<G> t: you need to simplify that… too many variables … that is a theological quadratic equation.
<t> Greylenseman: Ok how about this. “The Jews don't need to accept Christ, they can just follow the Law”.
<A> t Okay, now I understand what you are talking about.
<t> A/G: What is the Christian response?
<A> tsukino I have no yet formed a conclusion on that.
<b`> Isn't replacement theology the idea that the Church has replaced the Jews as Gods chosen?
<t> b` Yes, that the covenant with Jesus has replaced the 'old, outdated' covenant at Sinai
<G> That is very true… IF they can present to God 100% obedience and fufillment of the Law … anybody that CAN do that DOES NOT need Christ … they can be seen as a perfect person …. AND you can instantly tell who these people are … they NEVER DIE. They are not imperfect. Since NO ONE meets that criteria… well …..
<t> So the Church of Jesus is now the nation of Israel
<t> And, heir to all God's promises
<A> t I will be truthful, I know very little about the Bible
<b`> tsukino: By adoption though, not as heirs of the promise, or something like that.
<A> tsukino I did not become a Christian until I was 50.
<t> Greylenseman: Interesting, how do you know that they never die?
<b`> tsukino so it does include the church being heirs to the promise given Abraham.
<G> Death is due to Jehovah removing his spirit from Adam and Eve BEFORE they had children …. and you cannot inherit from you parents that which they do not possess.
<G> Perfect people were meant to live FOREVER, on Earth … that was the original purpose of this Universe, and the creatrion of mankind.
<G> ..and never die
<G> God changes his plans, but never his purposes.
<G> Jesus was “Plan B”
<G> a rescue operation
<G> NOT requiring any compromise of Jehovah's principles.
<G> “The meek shall Inherit the Earth …” <b`> Thats funny God changes his plans. So he is the Alpha and the Omega except when he veers off at the Delta. <G> If my purpose is to go to Florida by Air, and it's hurricane season, I may wish to drive, instead, or take a bus. My purpose ins unchanged… my plans would change.

Summary

  • The Law is still in effect, still valid for Jews.
  • The Jews cannot keep the law properly, it is in essence impossible to keep the law.
  • If one were to keep the law perfectly one would never die.
  • God had to change his original plan ('Plan A') for mankind in order to be saved under Christ (“Plan B”)

All of this is a pretty standard Christian response. For example, we could bring up Romans 11 to show that even Paul states that the Law is still in effect for Jews, and that Jews who keep the law will achieve salvation – and also the book of Hebrews, Galatians, etc. to show that the Christian view is that the law is impossible to keep.

Christian response to Romans 11

If the basic question is, can we just convert to being Jews and not need to accept Jesus, one might bring out Romans 11 to show that some Jews will still be saved under the Law, despite not accepting Jesus.

D writes:

<D> …the Jews must accept Christ to have a hope of salvation
<D> when one accepts Christ - then they become heirs of the promises to Abraham
<t> What about Romans 11, which states that some Jews will still be saved under the Law, despite not accepting Jesus?
<D> those Jews will be alive when Christ returns and will remain mortal
<D> Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
<D> Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
<D> Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
<D> Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

On Keeping the Law

<D> G, no one kept the law.. the very principle of the law was that Israel would understand that they needed a perfect sacrifice so God sent His son who fulfilled the Law.. the only people in the OT in Israel that will be saved will be those that understand and understood the need for Christ.. The law was a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ

Hot Topic #1: The Immortal Jews

Above (with D.) is the second time I have heard reference to these kinds of Jews who will not die/are immortal. When asked for a source D provided the following:

  • Isaiah 11, 12, 21
  • Deut 30
  • Ezekiel 37, 38
  • Zecheriah 14,
  • Joel 3
  • “Hosea etc etc”
  • Ezekiel 40 to 48

Isaiah 11 and 12

D. writes, “isaiah 11 concerns the return of Christ.. there are two ensigns mentioned.. 1 is to rally the nations to Christ after he returns. the second is to rally the Jews.. Isaiah 12 is the song sung after Christ returns and Israel returns”

Conclusion

th aptly writes “This theory assumes Jews are wrong about Judaism”. But it is more apt to note that the opinion of the Jews versus the opinion of the Christians is not the central issue here. If we assume the qualities of God set out in the ground rules, esp. that God exists outside of time and space, and if we accept that God tells us the truth about his plan, then it is not logical for us to assume God would change his plan without equal or greater evidence to the idea he would not do so. Examples of such evidence abound in the old testament. Jeremiah 3:14, 3:22; Hosea 14:1, Numbers 11:23, Isaiah 43:11 and more than a dozen others. Without such strong evidence in favor of the Christian opinion, I personally find extreme difficulty believing the claims made in the new testament regarding Jesus and the Law of Moses.

I think that closing this discussion with Deutoronomy 30:11 is apt; it is an example, one of many, of the word of God, which speaks directly to this matter.

11 Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?” 14 No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.

15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[b] that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the Lord swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.Deutoronomy 30:11-20

jews_don_t_need_christ.txt · Last modified: 2018/01/27 17:25 (external edit)