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--- munchausen_s_trilemma [2026/02/20 06:42] – created appledog
+++ munchausen_s_trilemma [2026/02/20 06:56] (current) – appledog
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-= Munchausen's Trilema
+= Munchausen's Trilemma
+== Speaking to the Atheist and the Presuppositionalist
+"How do you know that?" I.E. do you know you have hands? I.E. solipsism.
+The issue here is that Munchausen's trilemma exposes that while you may not be able to explain or expose the justification for a true belief, you yet can state a fact (without necessarily explaining it or justifying it). The PURPOSE of this epiphany is merely to point out that regardless of the weakness of each case in the trilemma, **nevertheless** you are able to know things, and //therefore// you have a justification. You just aren't able to explain it easily.
+Put another way, what is the necessary contingent that is not contingent informing the fundamental truth of existance? The "post-eternal?" The first mover, the necessary being? It does not matter if you know what it is, but we are forced to conclude that it must exist (i.e. the problem of entropy, problem of time, etc). This is the "A", the non-contingent principle -- the idea that something must be non-contingent, //since// or //due to// every case of the trilemma being unsatisfactory.
+Otherwise, what then is the "satisfactory fourth case"?
+=== On Solipsism
+"IF that were true," then the source of truth underpinning all reality would simply be myself. Given then some question such as "how do you //know// you have eyes //(or hands, or how do you know you have a brain)// -- if you didn't, but you thought you did, OR if you did but thought you didn't, then this would mean there is hidden information you are not aware of -- and then de facto there is some separation between you and whatever is processing reality (and therefore solipsism is untrue).
+In short there is no reason not to trust your senses (etc.) since there is nothing //informing// the anti-case. The idea that //we may speculate over this,// is only a statement that we may exercise free will. This is the "law of Five" in western occultism -- the idea that we can imagine anything. However, this is the important conclusion over that, it is not real. It is not real because it could be anything and this does not affect the world, or the world could not function. Therefore it is the proverbial invisible pink unicorn. How do you know it is pink if it is invisible? In fact, there is no meaning to this, it is not pink, and in fact by definition there is no such unicorn.
+The conclusion is that there must be a value proposition to any truth; if something is true and there is no value proposition, it is untrue. All truth affects the world, there is a power of natural selection to it; this also lends itself to the concept of a living religion; like the boy who lived in harry potter-- the dead religion is false, the only true religion must be a living religion. And all of this points to the B case and not the C case. This verifies B, but not C -- C-class claims //must// come later. This gives us an edge; others can only barely deal with A-class logic. B-class logic is a higher logic, like helper libraries in a kernal.
+== FACE discussion
 . Considering munchausen's trilema for justifying a belief, is there a fourth option? (answer: revelatory truth--justified coherentism--but this falls into #3)
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 . Munchausen's Trilema; each one considered unsatifsying-- but lets pick on #3. Since observational evidence is the strongest form of scientific evidence, why is observational proof or self-evident proof disqualified? Even if we embrace a kind of solipsism, are we saying that the very ability to process and comprehend evidence itself is not sufficient to verify the truth or falsehood of a statement? In that case I would propose that it is a kind of bait and switch; you have asked for evidence but you have pre-denied not only that there is no such evidence, but that evidence itself cannot satisfy truth or falsehood.
-=== Proving Jesus
+=== On Proving Jesus
 "Do you deny the necessity of a necessary God" -- first mover, non-contingent, non-eternal/post-eternal etc. (this is a throwback to #1)
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 Since we have authorized the holy scriptures as holy, they now become a tool for exposition. This section moved to [[:Jeremiah vs. King David]].
-== Grok
+== Appendix I: Grok
+Münchhausen trilemma (also known as the Agrippan trilemma or Munchausen's trilemma) is a famous problem in epistemology — the branch of philosophy that studies knowledge, justification, and truth.
+It argues that it's theoretically impossible to give an ultimate, unquestionable proof or complete justification for any truth claim (even in logic or mathematics) without falling into one of three unsatisfactory options.
+The trilemma gets its name from the tall tales of Baron Münchhausen, who supposedly pulled himself (and his horse) out of a swamp by his own hair — an absurd image of self-bootstrapping that can't actually work.
+The three horns of the trilemma
+When you try to justify a statement ("Why do you believe A?") and keep asking "But why is that justification true?", you eventually hit one of these:
+Infinite regress
+The chain of justifications never ends — each reason requires another reason forever (A justified by B, B by C, C by D, …).
+→ Unsatisfying because it never reaches solid ground.
+Circular reasoning (circularity)
+The justification loops back — you eventually use the original claim (or something that depends on it) to justify itself (A justified by B, B by C, C back to A).
+→ Unsatisfying because it's begging the question / tautological.
+Dogmatism / axiomatic stopping point
+The chain stops at some belief that is simply accepted without further justification ("it's self-evident", "it's an axiom", "God said so", "it's obvious", "I feel it intuitively").
+→ Unsatisfying because it's arbitrary or unproven.
+The trilemma says: pick your poison — every attempt at complete justification ends in one of these three dead-ends.
+Is there a fourth option?
+Mainstream academic philosophy generally says no — these three options exhaust the logical possibilities for linear chains of justification.
+Many philosophers therefore accept that absolute certainty (in the strong foundationalist sense) is impossible, and they choose one of the horns (or combinations) as the least-bad option:
+Infinitism embraces infinite regress as okay (rare).
+Coherentism embraces a kind of sophisticated circularity (a large web of mutually supporting beliefs rather than a tiny vicious circle).
+Foundationalism embraces dogmatism but tries to make the foundations as secure as possible (self-evident truths, reliable faculties, basic observations, etc.).
+Some people propose what they call "fourth options" or escapes, but these usually turn out to be:
+Variants of coherentism (e.g. "holistic / systematic mutual support isn't vicious circularity").
+Refusals to play the game ("knowledge doesn't require that kind of infinite-proof standard").
+Pragmatic / fallibilist approaches ("we don't need certainty, just good enough justification").
+Radical skepticism ("indeed nothing can be proven").
+Or highly technical / non-standard logics that most philosophers don't accept as dissolving the trilemma.
+In short: the trilemma is still widely regarded as valid — there is no uncontroversial fourth horn that everyone agrees escapes the force of the argument. It remains one of the deepest challenges to the idea of absolutely certain, fully justified knowledge. Most thinkers today simply live with one of the three horns rather than claiming to have transcended the trilemma entirely.